Moving to Vista 64, questions about Program File Directories

Hey all,

First of all, been around the forums a few days, but just registered last night and this will be my first post.

About a week or so ago, I decided to upgrade my PC to Windows Vista. I gave it awhile, mostly didn't want to deal with an upgrade and all that. System has been fine on XP for years...why mess with it. But having gotten a new video card, I just wanted to be current on my OS again. As it turns out, I like Vista alot and have had little to no trouble with it. If you look at my system config, nothing is more than a year old at most, so my computer, at least for my needs is still "current."

Having tried and like Vista 32bit (Home Premium) I have decided to take the next step into 64bit and that's why I am here. My system is 64 bit compatible, so I figure it's time to take full advantage of it. I have important apps I use for school for 3D that have 64bit versions I've been wanting to try, and I have 2 Gigs of RAM coming today which will make my total 4 and 64bit is the only way I can utilize it all!

I'll probably be doing the format install sometime tonight, which finally brings me to why I posted. In my research of Vista 64, I have read some blurbs about it giving youo 2 program files, Program Files and Program Files x86 (Or something.) I've also read that in some cases it can be important to make sure you install a certain program to the right one. My system has 3 physical Hard drive, that I partitioned in several total for storage, windows, programs, games, and so on. My current Program Files is a 80GB Partition all by itself. It's a different physical drive than Windows is on. Will installing applications to this drive like I have always did cause me any trouble in this new Vista 64 bit I'm about to dive into? My system will definately have a mix of 32bit and 64bit apps, with more by far probably being 32bit.

Also while I think to ask, will the Vista 64 install procedure allow me to just wipe the partition my OS is currently on? Or will going to 64 bit require me to wipe the entire physical HDD? The other partitions that share the Windows INstall Partition are just storage so I don't want to format them unless I need to.

Thanks for your time.

Basically, your Programs folder is 64 bit apps, your programs x86 is your 32 bit apps. I run a few 64 bit 3D apps as well.. Maya, POVRAY, a few other lighting and rendering apps so utilizing as much ram as possible was a deciding factor for me..( next motherboard will be 16GB capable!!) LOL placement can be an issue but very rarely as Vista seems to do a good job of putting things where they belong.. although.. I did have to create another programs folder for POVRAY, it needs to re-write to the INI files as it renders and Vista tries to protect itself from outside intrusion by not letting the programs files be written to or changed?? ( this is how it was explained to me in a raytracing forum..) I did as they said and its working fine. Welcome to 64 bit!! The gurus here will advise you on how to set up and the best ways to keep things working..

There are various options about the target drive, when you start the Vista installer, such as creating new partitions, formatting, etc. You could just let it format the target partition (I presume you have already copied any useful data files from it to another drive). You need to be careful that you pick the correct partition from the list offered.

The word "formatting" is sometimes misused, for example "I formatted my hard disk".

Actually the formatting command is only applied to one partition, not to the whole hard disk. It only affects the inside of the single partition it is applied to, giving it a fresh start with a new empty NTFS filing system. So the data inside your other partitions will be safe provided you don't let the Vista installer make any changes to the partitioning.

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You raise a different issue about where to install your programs. Usually the Program Files directories are on the same partition as the other system folders such as Windows and Users.

Some people have funny ways of arranging their partitions such as installing programs on another drive but there's no advantage to doing that. The operating system and the programs are inextricably involved with each other, for example the apps in Program Files depend on settings in AppData folders in the other system folders, and registry settings, etc. So when you back up or restore or reinstall your OS, you need to backup or restore or reinstall your programs at the same time.

A more sensible separation is to place your data files such as pictures videos and documents on another partition or disk, so they will not be affected by reinstalling the system and programs after reformatting the OS partition, if that becomes necessary because of virus damage or whatever.

So you might want to consider making the main OS partition quite large, so it will have enough space for the Program folders as well as the system -- maybe 50gb, depending what apps you intend to install.

If you do decide to resize or merge some partitions ready for Vista, I would recommend doing it beforehand with a partition manager instead of getting the Vista DVD to do it. That way you are doing it in a GUI program where you have a better view of exactly what you are doing and you will have more choices.

You can use the free gparted partition manager, or buy a fancy one such as Paragon or Acronis programs with more features and friendly wizards (don't buy Partition Magic which has not been updated to be compatible with Vista).

I hope that helps. Enjoy the new OS

Hi ZeonStar, and welcome to the forums

just one quick tip with the 64 bit install a lot of forum users have had problems with installs with 4GB Ram so the general suggestion is to install with just 2GB and install the extra ram when the install is complete.

if you search the forums for 64 bit install you will find a lot of usefull information.

good luck with the install.

Hey again,

Thanks for the replies and information. Blay, one of the applications I use is Maya, so it's funny you mention that. That's probably one of the few (If only) actual 64 bit app I will have to use when I install x64 on my system.

Bloke, you in particular have given me alot to think about regarding my partitions.

I admit (and perhaps I was misinformed that my partitions were very much based on what I thought was improved performance. I don't have anything like a RAID going, but my logic was by breaking up my drives into smaller chunks, and then putting things like Windows, Program Files, etc, on different PHYSICAL drives, The OS could pull info from say Windows and an App in the Program Files at the same time more quickly. Or something. I imagine you know what I'm talking about.

But now you say doing that does pretty much nothing? This is something I will have to think about, because if I am too merge my Windows Partition to also be for Programs, it needs to get alot bigger than I had it. The problem is the other partitions on the same physical drive as Windows are just storage, which I had it that way intentionally.

I would also imagine Games should just be installed as normal too? No seperate partition/drive for them either?

Looks like I have a bit more work than I though. I also just discovered Vista has it's own Parition resizing. Could that be used effectively to adjust my disk sizes if I do make some changes? (Thanks for the names of those other ones though!0

Oh and regarding my RAM, I did have a problem as a matter of fact. My system as is kept BSoDing when I had all 4 modules in. I know it can support the RAM, and it's the exact same model as my other 2 sticks. I tried 2 alone and it booted fine, I also tried the 2 new ones alone and it booted fine. So I can just install x64 with the 2GB and add the 2 more later? Seems like a pretty painless work around. I did found a MS fix on online but when I went to install it it said it didn't apply to my system. I know it DOES apply, but is probably irrelevent if I'm about to go x64.

Havn't made the jump to 64 bit myself yet but all reserch i've seen points to this painless workaround being verry effective. it's been mentioned many times in recent posts with as far as I can recall 100% success.

ZeonStar said:

I admit (and perhaps I was misinformed that my partitions were very much based on what I thought was improved performance. I don't have anything like a RAID going, but my logic was by breaking up my drives into smaller chunks, and then putting things like Windows, Program Files, etc, on different PHYSICAL drives, The OS could pull info from say Windows and an App in the Program Files at the same time more quickly. Or something. I imagine you know what I'm talking about.

But now you say doing that does pretty much nothing? This is something I will have to think about, because if I am too merge my Windows Partition to also be for Programs, it needs to get alot bigger than I had it. The problem is the other partitions on the same physical drive as Windows are just storage, which I had it that way intentionally.

I would also imagine Games should just be installed as normal too? No seperate partition/drive for them either?

Click to expand...

Yes I can understand the theory that having different parts of the system (I include installed apps in that general term "system") on different physical disks might improve performance very slightly. I think it's a bit obsessive though. Also it tends to waste space to break disks up into too many partitions, because you have lots of smaller areas of free space on all those partitions, and the free space is never where you want it. Also it might be harder to have a good backup strategy like that.

But now you have your disks partitioned that way, it would be a lot of work to rearrange it all (and a risk of losing some data in the process) so it will be hard to decide whether it's worth the bother of making a completely different partiioning plan.

ZeonStar said:

I also just discovered Vista has it's own Parition resizing. Could that be used effectively to adjust my disk sizes if I do make some changes? (Thanks for the names of those other ones though!0

Click to expand...

Personally I don't much like XP's or Vista's own Disk Management console. It doesn't have enough features and sometimes it obstinately refuses to resize partitions as much as you wish for no apparent reason.

Anyway, I think it's wise to have a good non-Microsoft partition manager on a bootable CD, and be familiar with how it works, in case of disasters where Windows won't boot and you need to do some repair work.

ZeonStar said:

Oh and regarding my RAM, I did have a problem as a matter of fact. My system as is kept BSoDing when I had all 4 modules in. I know it can support the RAM, and it's the exact same model as my other 2 sticks. I tried 2 alone and it booted fine, I also tried the 2 new ones alone and it booted fine. So I can just install x64 with the 2GB and add the 2 more later? Seems like a pretty painless work around. I did found a MS fix on online but when I went to install it it said it didn't apply to my system. I know it DOES apply, but is probably irrelevent if I'm about to go x64.

Click to expand...

There are several possible reasons for those BSODs.
If I were you I'd download memtest86+ which you can run off a bootable CD. That way you will know for sure whether the fault is in the ram itself or in Windows.

If you get errors in memtest86+ running from a CD instead of in Windows, it could be faulty ram sticks or it could just be that when all four sticks are installed you need to adjust some of the voltages or timings in the BIOS. If that happens, an overclocking guru would be the best person to ask for details. Even if you don't OC, those guys know which BIOS settings to change for better stability.

PS:
I just noticed from your specs that you are overclocking. You can't overclock as much with 4 ram sticks as you can with two. Reduce the memory speed slightly, or maybe increase its voltage slightly and then run an overnight test with memtest86+ while all four sticks are installed.

Yeah I am Overlocking, I forgot to mention that. But I'm not actually OCing my RAM, just my CPU. The RAM is set right to it's recommended settings, nothing fancy.

I am new to Overclocking though. So I need to ask, does Overclocking my CPU alone affect my RAM weather I want it to or not? I did make sure to set the RAM Ratio to FSB to still make my RAM DDR 800. When I first OCed the CPU, that changed to make my RAM 1066, but I lowered it to match back to what the RAM is, 800.

Also I don't think my new sticks are faulty. I've been running the system with them only all afternoon now, I just switched the new RAM for the old RAM to test the very idea that the new ram could be bad, but it seems totally fine so far. My system just didn't like the 4 GBs for whatever reason. It would Blue screen during windows loading, never even got to the desktop. The BS disapears too fast for me to read anything from it though.

However, not really even thinking about the RAM thing right now.

Getting back to the Partition thing, again Bloke thanks for your input. You've given me alot to think about, and I am actually concerned about doing this wrong now. I'm anxious to get started though so I can have my PC back how I like it later tonight, but hopefully with a new 64 Bit OS.

Before I go on, I kind of want to repeat my original question. If I keep my seperate partition for Programs, as pointless as it may be, am I likely to run into many problems with the whole Program Files and Program Files x86 thing? I can (and probably will) of simply also make a Program Files x86 Folder on my Programs Files Partition.

I actually have a 4th Hard drive I can copy/move pretty much anything I want to keep from my other 3 physical drives, so if a complete restructure of my drives is in order, it's not really a problem. The 4th drive was actually a external drive but the enclosure went bad, so I pulled out the HDD which is still a perfectly good working SATA 320 GB drive and my system happens to have 1 SATA connector free, so in it goes. (I do intend to make it a external again.)

Part of me wants to just keep things the way I have them, though I really am considering all this new input. My windows Partition will we wiped for sure, as well as Programs and Games Partition since when I wipe Windows, I will have to reinstall everything anyway since Windows wont even know those programs are there.

For the idea of my structure, here is how my partitions are. (If anyone cares.)

Disk 1 (250GB Drive). 50GB for Windows, 100 for Multimedia, 100 for Storage. (Storage being anything from setups to drivers, etc.)
Disk 2 (160 GB Drive). Split in 2 evenly. 1 Partition for Program Files, 1 for Games.
Disk 3 (300GB Drive). 1 Large Partition for Digital Video Capturing for Home Movies I make for me and my wife Recently made a smaller partition for more storage as Storage I was getting kind of full.

All these drives were made just over a year ago, so I am due for some "HOuse cleaning." In using my system since then I have learned a few things.

My Windows Partition is a bit too big, maybe by 10GBs.
My Program Files Parition is WAY too Big, Games needs more.
Multimedia is pretty full, as is Storage. Might be time to clean up or put some stuff on DVD, or just solely on my external.
Whatever I do with 2 drives, I will keep 1 big one pretty exclusively for DV Capture, as that was the only reason I bought the 3rd drive.

But if anyone has some suggestions on reorganization, I am open to it.

Oh and for formatting/Partitioning, I could just use the Bootable setup CDs that come with my drives, could I not? Seagate Tools, Maxblast...Etc?

ZeonStar said:

Getting back to the Partition thing, again Bloke thanks for your input. You've given me alot to think about, and I am actually concerned about doing this wrong now. I'm anxious to get started though so I can have my PC back how I like it later tonight, but hopefully with a new 64 Bit OS.

Before I go on, I kind of want to repeat my original question. If I keep my seperate partition for Programs, as pointless as it may be, am I likely to run into many problems with the whole Program Files and Program Files x86 thing? I can (and probably will) of simply also make a Program Files x86 Folder on my Programs Files Partition.

Click to expand...

I am experienced with partitioning, multibooting, etc, but quite new to Vista 64, so I'm not certain whether there are any real functional differences between \Program Files\ and \Program Files (x86)\

I notice that by default 32 bit programs get installed in the second of those two. For example there's a 64 bit edition of IE7 in Program Files and a 32 bit edition of it in Program Files (86). What I'm not certain about is whether Windows actually launches a program differently in some way depending which of those two folders it's been installed in (like maybe a compatibility mode) but I doubt it. I think it's simply a way to organise them so you can find 32 bit varieties of programs.

In the past, in XP and Vista 32, I used to install programs which give you a choice, like most of them do, in my own folders such as C:\Apps and C:\Utils, partly because I prefer to have shorter paths without spaces. It always worked just fine. I now do the same in my new Vista 64 OS, with no problems at all so far.

So if you want to install your apps on another drive, I don't think you have to use the standard folder names, Program Files and Program Files (x86) on those other disks.

ZeonStar said:

For the idea of my structure, here is how my partitions are.
(... snip ...)
My Windows Partition is a bit too big, maybe by 10GBs.
My Program Files Parition is WAY too Big, Games needs more.
Multimedia is pretty full, as is Storage. Might be time to clean up or put some stuff on DVD, or just solely on my external.
Whatever I do with 2 drives, I will keep 1 big one pretty exclusively for DV Capture, as that was the only reason I bought the 3rd drive.

Click to expand...

You will find that Vista 64 needs a bigger OS partition than XP or even Vista 32 needs. Also you will want to have enough space on C: for hiberfil.sys which is used for Sleep / Hybrid Sleep / Hibernation and is 4gb if you have 4gb RAM. Also a big pagefile.sys unless you change your virtual memory settings.

Your comments generally about "this one is too big, this one is too small" illustrate my point about having so many different partitions. You can never predict your future needs such as what new software you will get. Anyway, you don't have to stick to any plan exactly. I mean, if you have one folder for games and one for programs, and then Games gets too full, simply install one of your games into the Programs partition instead. Or you can install a big application into the Games partition if necessary. After all, a game is a program! Games and the other programs aren't allergic to each other.

Really I can't write a prescription for your partitioning.
I'll just share my own arrangement, which is based on the idea that I want a thorough backup plan, so I can be up and running within minutes if one of my hard disks dies. Note that I don't use games, so I can devote more space to backups. This is my work computer (I'm a graphic designer) so I can't afford any down time or data loss.

I have two 500gb disks and a 60gb.

Disk One has two partitions: C (50gb) for Windows and installed apps. D (450gb) for data including the official Documents folder (etc) which I have relocated from their standard places in C:\Users\Alan

Disk Two has two partitions exactly the same size as on disk one. The first is an exact clone of C:. This disk also has its MBR cloned from disk one, so if Disk One dies, I can just switch the bootable HD in BIOS and I'm in business.
The second partition on Disk Two has backups of everything from the second partition of Disk One. Unlike my system partition, it's not done by sector for sector cloning, its done file by file, so I can synchronise files and have alternative versions etc.

Disk Three: page file, TEMP folders, Photoshop's swap file.

ZeonStar said:

Oh and for formatting/Partitioning, I could just use the Bootable setup CDs that come with my drives, could I not? Seagate Tools, Maxblast...Etc?

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Seagate DiskWizard and MaxBlast are identical except for name and either of them is willing to work on both Seagate and Maxtor disks, now owned by the same company. DiskWizard is great (a slightly reduced edition of Acronis TrueImage). Although it runs in Windows, its CD is needed for when Windows won't boot.

DiskWizard is mainly for backup images and clones, and can also do some partitioning but not quite as full featured as a dedicated partition manager, for example I don't think it can do lossless merging and resizing.

Thank you again for all that information. I get more what I am doing and what my options are.

I'm glad you mentioned x64 takes up MORE install space, as i had not even considered that. On your 50GB Partition, how much is Windows alone taking? On my system, my Windows Partition is 37GB and currently about 31GB is being used, and I am not quite sure why it's so much. There are about 3GB of program files that have been installed on that drive in the last year, but the windows folder itself is like 12 GBs so not sure where all the extra is.

I have plenty of drives, so I can of course put the paging file on a different drive, and probably should anyway. You only really need ONE Paging File right? Will I still need one with 4GB of Memory though? Never used more than 2GB o RAM.

I am using Acronis for my partitions, Thanks again for mentioning it.

I think after I get my Windows Parition size chosen, I'm all set to install.

My Vista disc/license is an UPGRADE. Am I going to have any trouble doing a clean 64-bit Vista install? If so, what can I do?

It's hard to get the size of the Windows partition just right. I guess it's better to make it a too big than too small.

Yes the page file is meant to be about as big as RAM plus another 10%. You can set that as the min size and set a larger max value. It's very unlikely to grow beyond that min size. There's also the hibernation file hiberfil.sys which is always the same size as your ram and I don't think you can put it on another drive than C:

There is also the hidden System Volume Information folder which contains restore points and shadow copies (uses more space than in XP). It can take 15% of the partition by default I think. It will grow gradually and this confuses people sometimes "where's all my hard disk space gone?". In the Tutorials forum you can read how to set it's max size bigger or smaller. Bigger allows more restore points.

My 50gb for C: seems big enough for me, including some big apps but no games. The pagefile and TEMP dirs are on another disk (that can be set in the Environment Variables dialog). Also I have no documents in C:.

Sorry i can't be more specific than that.

ZeonStar said:

My Vista disc/license is an UPGRADE. Am I going to have any trouble doing a clean 64-bit Vista install? If so, what can I do?

Click to expand...

There's a guide about that in the Tutorials forum.

Hello ZeonStar, welcome to Vista forums!

Here are links to the two tutorials OldBloke mentioned.

http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/76227-system-restore-disk-space.html?ltr=S

http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/68767-clean-install-upgrade-vista.html?ltr=C

Keep us informed!









Later Ted

Just a quick thing regarding the Page/Swap file. I can manually tell it to have NONE on the Main Windows Drive, and then set it on whatever drive I like, and Windows will know and use it from where I set it?

I never moved my paging file before, or rather, set it to a drive that windows isn't on. I figure a little used storage drive will be a good place for a Pagefile.

ZeonStar said:

Just a quick thing regarding the Page/Swap file. I can manually tell it to have NONE on the Main Windows Drive, and then set it on whatever drive I like...

Click to expand...

Yes, if you do that it will automatically delete the page file from drive C: and create a new page file of the size you specify as Minimum, on whichever drive you chose.

Just a quick update that things overall are going well with my move to x64. However today in particular, I have gotten a few BSoDs. Before now, I had not gotten one in ages on XP or even 32 Bit Vista. Not really sure what's going on. The first one was caused by USBAudio, which I know meant my USB Logitech Headset I use for Ventrilo with World of Warcraft, but then I got another BS and this time the cause said system_service_exception.

Whatever that is...

Hello again.

From what I've seen, sometime it's caused by the RAM not being seated correctly.

Keep us informed!













Later Ted