Say No to Segoe - Changing the Vista Shell Font

stevehal · Jan 16, 2008

Hi,

I searched the web in many places and could not find a way to completely change my system to not use Segoe UI fonts.

I have a new 21-inch CRT and Segoe UI looks terrible, especially with ClearType turned off. I do not need ClearType at all on my CRT monitors. I need to use CRT's because I often need to change resolutions.

I looked everywhere for a solution... so I them messed around with the registry, and stumbled on something that may truely remove Segoe UI from my user interfaces and dialogs.

I do not know how this works on other systems, or systems with Office 2007. I would be very interested in the results that others get, and also to see if someone has Office 2007 that can try it.

I included the .REG files in the zip of this little app, so you can open those and see what I do.

If it works, or not works for you, let me know.

See this somewhat private link in my blog for the tools and .REG files...

Steve’s Blog

Thanks,

Steve

rajinisback · Jan 16, 2008

Hi stevehal,
Have you went to the maker's website of your 21 inch CRT to see if they made vista drivers for that monitor?
Raj

stevehal · Jan 16, 2008

Hi Raj,

I did not do this because I do not think it is needed on this CRT. It is plug and play, and very clear. I got the resolution and refresh rate where I want.

It seems Microsoft forgot about CRT users when deciding to use Segoe UI in the shell. I have no idea why they did not put in an option to change it.

I think many with CRT monitors will see what I am seeing.

I fixed the pictures on the blog post above (I have been having a lot of trouble since installing a theme on the site), but here are the before and after shots of the Start/Run menu...

Does anyone see the difference?

MrHope · Jan 16, 2008

that's a nice difference. good work on that hack.

Brink · Jan 17, 2008

Steve,

Here is another method for changing the system default fonts if you would like to use it as well with your program.

http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/106279-fonts-change-default.html

Shawn

stevehal · Jan 17, 2008

Hi Shawn,

Thanks... Yes, I saw that thread. The problem is that what you see in the picture in the thread in the Run dialog picture by Verwolk is actually Segoe UI with Font Smoothing completely disabled. I still want Font Smoothing set to Standard, but not Cleartype, and not have Segoe UI (which is only optimized for Cleartype it seems) pop up everywhere else.

That is exactly what I struggled with. I looked everywhere on the net with no solution. So it was kind of a "Watson, get in here" kind of discovery when I found my font actually changed to Arial in the system dialogs! And the fix was not as complicated as I thought... it was just to find the right combination of settings.

Steve

Brink · Jan 17, 2008

Steve,

Yes, it was nice to find out how to change the system default fonts. Your program will definitely make it easier to do. Thank you for sharing it here.

Shawn

DeXtmL · Jan 18, 2008

Well, making change to system font may lead to some weird rendering afterwards.
Some programs are so badly coded at this point( deal with fonts, especially with the customized default fonts ). The symptoms are hard to state clearly, but generally this manner is not recommended.
This is not MS's fault. But paying some attention to 3rd party developers would always give u some good choices.

Good luck

stevehal · Jan 18, 2008

Yes, there could be a strange effect, such as a truncating if your font selections profile is wider than Segoe UI, and there is a program specifically designed to use Segoe UI with fixed font labels. But Arial used in replacement, with Tahoma everywhere else, gives me pretty close to what I had with XP, and I have yet to see any problems so far. So here is hoping that Arial used will be OK. At least it is so easy to switch back and forth if needed.

But I have to say that what Microsoft left us with (for us CRT users and for some LCD users), was definately not well thought out. Did CRT's dissapear last year? The new CRT I have now replaced one that was 8 years old and still worked very well. Yes, you can hardly find CRT's, and the one I have (NEC Accusync 120) is one of the last still on the market.

I wonder what the professional graphics industry is going to use when CRT's dissapear. The biggest problem with LCD's (or for me the only problem), is that you are technically trapped in a native resolution. You can change, but you lose clarity. But I suspect new flat technology will improve LCD's even more.

But anyway, when you work in front of your computer, sometimes 10 hours a day, you need the least discomfort from your monitor... and the Vista designers were definately not programming on CRT's.

Yes... I have a bit of a rant going on.

Steve

DeXtmL · Jan 19, 2008

stevehal said:
Yes, there could be a strange effect, such as a truncating if your font selections profile is wider than Segoe UI, and there is a program specifically designed to use Segoe UI with fixed font labels. But Arial used in replacement, with Tahoma everywhere else, gives me pretty close to what I had with XP, and I have yet to see any problems so far. So here is hoping that Arial used will be OK. At least it is so easy to switch back and forth if needed.

Not really. You may also exp truncated or even overlapped font display after you THOUGHT you have undone your changes to default font. That case is not frequently happening, but it indeed exists: some internal parameters controling the font display fail to get restored; and then the situation is even worse! :confused:

I have not seen the affect of aliased (aka, without clear-Type tech) Segoe font. so i cant make a justice inference. MS designed Segoe for getting the utmost efx with clear-type turned on. But u should get aware of the fact that clear-type is developed for LCD, cuz CRT wouldn't produce a obvious jaggy edge line like on LCD. Your screen-shots have just shown the diff between ClearType ON and ClearType OFF, but that's normal to every display. you can spot such difference on many LCDs. I don't think it's ms' fault to decide to use Segoe as Vista's default font. It have to choose a compromising scheme on a vast pc spec scale.

Try to send a complaint to MS with your trouble clearly stated. They may provide an excellent solution.

Good luck

DeXtmL

stevehal · Jan 19, 2008

Hi Dex,

The screen caps show Segoe UI without cleartype, and Arial without cleartype. And yes, you would really need to look using a good CRT, and the difference is more than minimal... it is huge, actually enough that it would produce eye-strain for many in my believe. That is one reason I am so negative on Microsoft on this. How on earth could this have slipped into Vista. It is so obvious, that it could not be an ommission... it must have been a "decision".

But then again, sometimes the obvious is not really obvious, and you may be right, that trying to get Microsoft's attention on this could help. Maybe it is worth a try.

You would even have to be on a CRT to see the difference in the screen captures really, because the Segoe pics on a LCD may look OK. Plus, the pictures do not really do justice. If you look at the picture below, it is with Cleartype off (which is needed on CRT's), and with the before and after pictures. Again, looking at this on an LCD will not really show the difference as great as seeing it on a CRT...

Before and After (Segoe on left, Arial on right)

From this zoom compare, you may be able to see from a conceptual point of view what the difference is... the top is with Cleartype off, but it shows how Microsoft applies it's cleartype in certain UI areas when you explicitly turn Cleartype off (top Segoe, bottom Arial).

Anyway, if there are graphic anomolies that could occur in my Vista, then unfortunately I have to take the risk. Moving from in and out of clear to blurry drives me mad (ok, mad just a bit). There is no reason it should be this way.

Steve

DeXtmL · Jan 20, 2008

Hey Steve,

I seem to understand your meaning.
I have taken a peek at the no ClearType desktop. There's indeed a quirk: The text on GUI elements is aliased, just like your arial font screen-shot. BUT... the text in such as help pane, control panel (modern view), taskbar ... still looks the same whatever the ClearType is on or off! Then the terrible font appearance clicks into place ( Sorry, i have not CRT and my friends are using LCDs, so i can only "image" the eye-strain font rendering on your screen). You may be crazy about the over-blurred text edge and weird "rainbow-nized" efx on segoe font.

Go ahead asking ms for an answer. I must emphrasize again that crop with system font might be dangerous. u never know what will happen. So, directly talk to ms may be a good idea.

Hope u can fix this problem.

Good luck

Eric G · Dec 16, 2009

-----------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Aero Theme (Fixed) now outdated. See below.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to offer my solution, which is an improvement upon that which stevehal is offering. I have figured out how to use Tahoma at 8pts in the Windows interface, in part thanks to the posts above.

In Windows 7 and Vista, one has the option to change portions of the user interface (UI) to whatever font he or she desires. Unfortunately it is not an option to change certain parts of the interface. After having thoroughly searched for a solution to change all instances of the Windows 7 UI font from Segoe UI to Tahoma (the old default in previous versions of Windows), I eventually found Steve Halpern’s NoSegoe solution. It simply uses the Registry to specify Tahoma (or any other font of your choosing) an alternative to Segoe. More information on NoSegoe can be found here: http://steve.fsxtrem...type-on-vista/. While this completely clears up the interface on screens that cannot properly render Cleartype and Segoe UI, things still look awkward. This is due to the fact that Segoe is generally used at a font size of 9pts, whereas Tahoma was always displayed at 8pts.

I was able to create my own solution to this problem by modifying the default Aero theme. The only changes made in my theme were to the font settings. All instances of Segoe UI where changed to Tahoma. Additionally, all 9pt instances (which constitutes most of them) were set to 8pts, the others were left at their default font size. The Aero theme was modified using Vista Style Builder (http://vistastylebuilder.com/).

My fixed Aero theme can be used by itself, however it will only replace instances of Segoe in the Windows user interface. External programs that are hard coded to use Segoe UI, even ones included with Windows 7, such as Calculator and Resource Monitor, will continue to use Segoe. For best results, and in order to completely eliminate Segoe UI, I recommend using NoSegoe in conjunction with the fixed Aero Theme. The Aero Theme (Fixed) package only works with Windows 7, however NoSegoe works with both Vista and 7.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Aero Theme (Fixed) Outdated

I have created an installer for what I previously referred to as "Aero Theme (Fixed)". I would highly recommend that anyone interested in it now use the installer for Windows Aero (Tahoma Font) instead.

Windows Aero (Tahoma Font) has four important improvements over Aero Theme (Fixed):

Now supports Windows Vista in addition to Windows 7.
All Aero-based themes automatically use Windows Aero (Tahoma Font). Previously, only the default theme took advantage of the font changes. If desired, Windows Aero (Tahoma Font) can still be installed along-side the standard Windows Aero, however this is not supported by the installer and, as such, must be done manually.
Certain portions of the Windows interface no longer render incorrectly. This issue was due to the fact that I attempted to rename all of the files that aero.msstyles relies on but missed one. In my own experiences, it only affected the address bar in Firefox, but there are surely other programs that were negatively impacted as well.
The Active Title Bar no longer needs to be set to Trebuchet MS at size 10. This setting is now built into aero.msstyles.

More information on Windows Aero (Tahoma Font), as well as downloads, can be found here.

Sbrideau · Dec 16, 2009

About the discomfort thing while being a lot of hours in front of the screen, it isn't a problem with HD LCD Screens, easy to find at around $200 CAD nowadays. I am someone that is on the computer a lot of the time too, at college as well as at home, and I have no CRT screens, the last one I had was much more blurry than my LCD screens.

I agree on the fact that cheap LCD screens are quite blurry, even worse than CRT screens as that's what I have at college as secondary screen, HD on the laptop and cheap screen already in the class.

Anyway, this is all I had to say. My eyes were getting tired much faster on crt screens than lcd.

msafi · Dec 20, 2012

Friends,

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but Steve's website no longer works. And it was one of the essential resources that I visit every time I'm setting up a new computer.

I'm on Windows 8 now, and I want to disable font smoothing in the system. Steve's registry update files were very convenient for doing this. Does anyone know an alternative way to do this in Windows 8?

Thank you very much,

MK

richc46 · Dec 20, 2012

Welcome To Vista Forums
May I suggest that you visit our Eight Forums, where you will get excellent help from people quite knowledgable in Windows Eight
Windows 8 Forums

Eric G · Dec 20, 2012

Hello msafi,

I haven't tested NoSegoe with Windows 8 yet, but I still have the files. I would recommend checking this out: Make Tahoma 8pt in Windows 8. I haven't looked at it myself, but it sounds like it addresses some of the same issues that my project addressed for Windows Vista and 7. I believe it also includes the barebones NoSegoe Registry files you're looking for.

Eventually I'll have to update Windows Aero (Tahoma Font) to support Windows 8, but I'll need to come up with a new name as well.

Edit: The Windows Aero (Tahoma Font) post seems to have been deleted. I can't find a way to messages the moderators, so I've linked to the same post that I made on another forum.

Say No to Segoe - Changing the Vista Shell Font

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