System freeze, no leads

VaguelyRapt · Aug 3, 2009

[Solved] System freeze, no leads

Solution (for whomever may have stumbled upon this page through Google):
My computer was freezing on a random basis because I used Acronis Disk Director Suite to partition my hard drive (issues with Vista compatibility?). Anyway, I had to write 0's to my hard drive (using KillDisc, i.e. deleting my entire hard drive and reinstalling everything) and no more issues.

OK... Where do I start?

Background to the problem (why not send to HP while under warranty)
(You may skip the explanation straight to the problem below if you just wanna help me out already

)
If "send to HP" in the title doesn't give it away: My HP Pavilion is under warranty, but the thing is - I've sent it back to HP for repairs twice already (for the same screen-related problem). I hate their customer service for giving me a bad product and not fixing it the first time :sa:. I'd do anything to not sent it in again for another few weeks... Hopefully I can do something myself (I'm competent enough to do / learn to do very advanced procedures).

Problem
First off, I would not consider myself technologically inept, and I take good care of my hardware and software. But I can't find any pattern whatsoever in anyway. The last thing I did before the freezing started that might be related is partitioning my 320GB HDD to 60 gigs reserved for Vista, and the rest for media and personal files. I used Acronis Disk Director, but I'm understanding this shouldn't make a difference, even if it would fail a CHKDSK (the partition is formatted anyway after installing Vista).

It would seem obvious it's a hardware problem - seeing as even after a clean install it kept acting up. (My first system was preinstalled by HP, my second using a downloaded anytime upgrade disc with the same previous activation) - two completely separate installations, same exact issue. I've been keeping my new system very clean with as little installations as possible to reduce possibilities of software issues. On the other hand, the freezing itself shows symptoms that I would think point quite clearly to software issues: the active window freezes, but the mouse still responds - and if I dare click (anywhere, active window or not), the whole thing then freezes (the screen freezes and stays on, precisely the way it was the moment I click) and I have nothing to do but forcefully shutdown my laptop.

I see no pattern in anything I'm doing specifically (or not doing) that causes the freeze. I know how to Google, but I'm not sure what to Google for. Following some results, I looked at the Event Viewer, and didn't find anything prior to the freezes that would hint anything. There are four errors after every startup, one of them saying that the system could not successfully load the crash dump driver... Which was the only other thing I could count on that would help me diagnose this weird problem. I can't find any documentation for WinDbg for Vista (even though I understand it's slightly advanced), but I don't think this is relevant seeing as Windows isn't loading the crash dump driver on startup, and I can't find any .dmp files or folders resembling "Dump" in the Windows folder or anything that can be opened in WinDbg...

At this point I'm supposed to write up my specs and config (or use that nifty system information app I found on this forum), but I see no reason for that since I can't even narrow it down to whether it's a hardware/software issue! The only thing I can narrow it down to (since it has happened on two separate system installations) are the HP drivers (from their website), some very reliable software (Firefox and a few others I've been using for months with no issues) and my laptop hardware. None of which sounds like a cause for OS freezing. Basically I have Vista Home Premium 32 on an HP Pavilion (dv5 series). I'd gladly post any and everything requested if you think it can lead to solutions.

This is the first time I'm ever posting an issue on a forum, because all my past issues were resolved with Search And Research skills. Unfortunately, this issue seems so broad and so abstract, I don't think I know how to figure it out on my own or with Google's help.

Basically, the bottom line question is: How do you diagnose system freezes or crashes in Vista?

This forum has helped me out many times before, and I know there are excellent people here whom I can surely trust to help me out, so that hopefully I can resolve this and learn for the future and help others as well. I appreciate anyone's spare time, and I want to cooperate as much as I can to do this without the damn customer support (who have yet to reply to an email I sent them two weeks ago)...

Thanks in advance!

zigzag3143 · Aug 3, 2009

VaguelyRapt said:
OK... Where do I start?

Background to the problem (why not send to HP while under warranty)
(You may skip the explanation straight to the problem below if you just wanna help me out already )
If "send to HP" in the title doesn't give it away: My HP Pavilion is under warranty, but the thing is - I've sent it back to HP for repairs twice already (for the same screen-related problem). I hate their customer service for giving me a bad product and not fixing it the first time :sa:. I'd do anything to not sent it in again for another few weeks... Hopefully I can do something myself (I'm competent enough to do / learn to do very advanced procedures).

Problem
First off, I would not consider myself technologically inept, and I take good care of my hardware and software. But I can't find any pattern whatsoever in anyway. The last thing I did before the freezing started that might be related is partitioning my 320GB HDD to 60 gigs reserved for Vista, and the rest for media and personal files. I used Acronis Disk Director, but I'm understanding this shouldn't make a difference, even if it would fail a CHKDSK (the partition is formatted anyway after installing Vista).

It would seem obvious it's a hardware problem - seeing as even after a clean install it kept acting up. (My first system was preinstalled by HP, my second using a downloaded anytime upgrade disc with the same previous activation) - two completely separate installations, same exact issue. I've been keeping my new system very clean with as little installations as possible to reduce possibilities of software issues. On the other hand, the freezing itself shows symptoms that I would think point quite clearly to software issues: the active window freezes, but the mouse still responds - and if I dare click (anywhere, active window or not), the whole thing then freezes (the screen freezes and stays on, precisely the way it was the moment I click) and I have nothing to do but forcefully shutdown my laptop.

I see no pattern in anything I'm doing specifically (or not doing) that causes the freeze. I know how to Google, but I'm not sure what to Google for. Following some results, I looked at the Event Viewer, and didn't find anything prior to the freezes that would hint anything. There are four errors after every startup, one of them saying that the system could not successfully load the crash dump driver... Which was the only other thing I could count on that would help me diagnose this weird problem. I can't find any documentation for WinDbg for Vista (even though I understand it's slightly advanced), but I don't think this is relevant seeing as Windows isn't loading the crash dump driver on startup, and I can't find any .dmp files or folders resembling "Dump" in the Windows folder or anything that can be opened in WinDbg...

At this point I'm supposed to write up my specs and config (or use that nifty system information app I found on this forum), but I see no reason for that since I can't even narrow it down to whether it's a hardware/software issue! The only thing I can narrow it down to (since it has happened on two separate system installations) are the HP drivers (from their website), some very reliable software (Firefox and a few others I've been using for months with no issues) and my laptop hardware. None of which sounds like a cause for OS freezing. Basically I have Vista Home Premium 32 on an HP Pavilion (dv5 series). I'd gladly post any and everything requested if you think it can lead to solutions.

This is the first time I'm ever posting an issue on a forum, because all my past issues were resolved with Search And Research skills. Unfortunately, this issue seems so broad and so abstract, I don't think I know how to figure it out on my own or with Google's help.

Basically, the bottom line question is: How do you diagnose system freezes or crashes in Vista?

This forum has helped me out many times before, and I know there are excellent people here whom I can surely trust to help me out, so that hopefully I can resolve this and learn for the future and help others as well. I appreciate anyone's spare time, and I want to cooperate as much as I can to do this without the damn customer support (who have yet to reply to an email I sent them two weeks ago)...

Thanks in advance!

VR

Nice post
makes it easier on everyone. Has this given you bsod's?if so could you get the *.dmpfile and upload it to us. Second does this lovely random thing ever show its head in event viewer? Would be nice to have some data to work from.

Let us know if you need help with the upload.

Ken

VaguelyRapt · Aug 3, 2009

Wow, fast reply.

No, I wish I would get a bsod. The screen just freezes. I mentioned my problem with dumps; the dump driver doesn't even load on startup, and I couldn't find them manually in the windows folder. Nothing shows in the event viewer prior to the freeze. Though it does show that the dump driver doesn't load on startup (after the freeze, obviously).

Yes, it would be nice to have some data to work from. Unfortunately, there is none. Or at least none that I'm aware of.

Is there something I missed?

Frostmourne · Aug 3, 2009

HP drivers have apparently been causing problems. To fix the crash dump initialization failed error, open up system properties, click on the Advanced Settings link, then look in one of the tabs for a error settings box, tick both the options - Restart on BSOD and write error to system file.

As for the crashes, check reliability monitor by typing perfmon into the vista start menu. That should list any freezes at a particular time and any faulting modules. You could also check "problem reports and solutions" to see what vista has recorded. Post any info there. As for event viewer, look under applications for any interesting log. Apart from that update video and sound drivers from the manufacturer, so Realtek for audio, Nvidia for drivers etc. Download either x64 or x86 and see what happens.

VaguelyRapt · Aug 4, 2009

Frostmourne said:
HP drivers have apparently been causing problems. To fix the crash dump initialization failed error, open up system properties, click on the Advanced Settings link, then look in one of the tabs for a error settings box, tick both the options - Restart on BSOD and write error to system file.

As for the crashes, check reliability monitor by typing perfmon into the vista start menu. That should list any freezes at a particular time and any faulting modules. You could also check "problem reports and solutions" to see what vista has recorded. Post any info there. As for event viewer, look under applications for any interesting log. Apart from that update video and sound drivers from the manufacturer, so Realtek for audio, Nvidia for drivers etc. Download either x64 or x86 and see what happens.

HP drivers were working great for almost a year, I don't understand why would they suddenly start failing.

As far as the crash dump: both settings are already enabled (I don't recall ever disabling them either). The issue with the crash dump is that I'm not getting a BSOD, I'm getting a freeze. It's not getting a chance to dump because everything freezes and I'm forced to hold the power button down (i.e. cutting power, not allowing any procedures to follow before restarting). I'm afraid crash dumps will not help me on this one.

Looking deeper into the event viewer, I couldn't find anything recorded less than an hour before the freezes (except one successful initialization of WinHTTP Web Proxy service, which I understand is completely normal - even this was 15 whole minutes before the freeze and it was not an error, just an informational log).

Problem Reports and Solutions: There are a few issues with drivers (I'm working on reinstalling the drivers since the clean install), but once again, HP's drivers have been serving me well for the good part of the last year. I believe the failed installations of certain audio drivers happened after the freezing started - but this shouldn't make a difference anyway because the previous system had the drivers preinstalled (correctly I hope) by HP and the freezing happened on the previous system as well, failed audio driver installation or not.

One other thing from Problem Reports and Solutions (which I have linked to be related to SP1 installation)

Product
Windows Modules Installer

Problem
WINDOWS_WCP_OTHER_FAILURE2

Date
7/31/2009 7:13 PM

Status
Report Sent

Problem signature
Problem Event Name: WINDOWS_WCP_OTHER_FAILURE2
OsVersion: 6.0.6000
File: base\wcp\componentstore\com\store.cpp
Function: Windows::COM::CComponentStore::InternalTransact
Line: 3458
Status: 8000ffff
OS Version: 6.0.6001.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033

Extra information about the problem
Bucket ID: 11519362

I'm getting the feeling I shouldn't be worrying about this one either. I had to retry SP1 installation twice due to power loss mid-installation. Since I have installed successfully, and like the audio drivers, this shouldn't concern me because the previous system also had freezes without SP1 installation issues.

It seems all the normal procedures to diagnose system freezes and crashes can't help me on this one, especially since I have no dump to work with. Is there anything else I can do? Perhaps there is some sort of real-time debugging software that can run in the background waiting for the freeze? Or maybe someone can tell me how to work with WinDbg under Vista (can it even help if there's no crash dump?) Is it possible there's a bug out there that no one knows where it originates from or how to deal with it???

I'm stumped as to why my system worked flawlessly for almost a year, and a clean install didn't fix this issue - and I'm still quite sure it's a software issue. Can anyone think/imagine how this could be?
I'm considering reinstalling Vista once again, make sure I'm installing service packs and drivers properly, and hope that it will work out somehow... Third system is a charm? I don't trust HP to have a clue as to how to deal with this or even to understand it. Could another clean install help?

usasma · Aug 5, 2009

First, please provide us with the exact text of the 4 repeating error messages that occur on startup.

Next, please open Task Manager by right clicking on the Task Bar and selecting it. Then click on the Processes tab, then right click on any process and select "Create dump file". Make a note of any error messages, and make a note of the location of the dump file if it creates it. Then, verify that it indeed was saved there.

If it does create a dump file, leave Task Manager open and click on the "Show processes for all users" button in the lower left corner. Then click on View, then on Select columns. Place a check mark next to I/O Reads and I/O Other. Then click OK to exit the dialog.

Resize the Task Manager window so that you can see most of the stuff. Then double click on the I/O Reads column to sort the list by that.

Then initiate the behavior that causes the freeze and check the Task Manager for numbers that excessively high. Once that's done, right click on explorer.exe and select "Create dump file". If that works, post back and we'll work on reading the dump file (it'll be too large to upload here).

Also, check the following stuff:

Go to Start and type in "wercon" (without the quotes) and press Enter
Go to Start and type in "perfmon /report" (without the quotes) and press Enter
Go to Start and type in "perfmon /rel" (without the quotes) and press Enter

I suspect this is a partition issue (especially with the mention that chkdsk fails), and recall some warnings from Acronis about the use of some of their products and Windows Vista. Should you decide to reinstall, I'd run KillDisk or DBAN on the disk, then install Vista to the full partition. Then defrag it, and shrink the partition down to the size that you want.

VaguelyRapt · Aug 5, 2009

usasma said:
I suspect this is a partition issue (especially with the mention that chkdsk fails), and recall some warnings from Acronis about the use of some of their products and Windows Vista. Should you decide to reinstall, I'd run KillDisk or DBAN on the disk, then install Vista to the full partition. Then defrag it, and shrink the partition down to the size that you want.

Thank you so much for your input, and another thanks to zigzag3143. I'm also getting the feeling it is a partition issue, seeing as it's the only thing that I see in common with both systems that suffered these freezes, that a clean install can't make a difference.

So before doing anything further, In an attempt to save your time, I will follow your advice and use Vista's computer management tool to partition my hard disk instead of using Acronis (btw, I don't think it failed a CHKDSK, I was a little unclear on that part). I think I'm looking for an excuse to try this clean install over anyway.

I will post when I have my computer set back up again, and update if the problem is solved and what solved it for others who might run into this frustrating issue. If this will not solve the issue, I will continue with the other troubleshooting you're offering.

usasma · Aug 6, 2009

You'll likely have to re-partition the disk before formatting (if my suspicions are correct). It's important to wipe everything off the disk before re-formatting (to rid the disk of any "corruptions") - that's why I suggested KillDisk or DBAN (other manufacturer's utilities will work also).

VaguelyRapt · Aug 8, 2009

usasma said:
You'll likely have to re-partition the disk before formatting (if my suspicions are correct). It's important to wipe everything off the disk before re-formatting (to rid the disk of any "corruptions") - that's why I suggested KillDisk or DBAN (other manufacturer's utilities will work also).

I tried DBAN, but upon wipe (trying three different types of wiping) I will get a message saying "DBAN finished with non-fatal errors. This is usually caused by disks with bad sectors." My hard drive passed both quick and normal Hard Disk Self Tests from the BIOS, I ran a Check Disk (with both options checked) on my system partition and am now doing the same for my other partition. I never had a problem with my Hard Drive (I take very good care of my computer), but after a little Googling I read that bad sectors are a red flag for impending doom, according to a post on one forum. Need I worry? This symptom only shows with DBAN, how do I get DBAN to work?

usasma · Aug 8, 2009

Bad sectors aren't a problem if they're recognized and marked as such (so they're not used). It's recurring bad sectors that are an indicator of a problem - and if you passed the normal test then it's most likely (IMO) that the previous things that you did to the hard drive could be causing this.

I'd suggest a "low-level" format/reinitialization of the hard drive using a utility from the manufacturer of the hard drive. Let us know what the manufacturer is and we'll see if we can locate the appropriate tool for you.

VaguelyRapt · Aug 8, 2009

OK, for the first time my system froze due to an action of mine - in this case it was changing a background with a random background changer. I had been fiddling with a few of them recently (lightweight apps that run in the background and change random wallpapers on a timer), but I didn't correlate it with the freezes. Actually, I haven't been getting freezes for a good two days now, and this specific freeze happened after giving one random background changer a try. I'm thinking it could be the timer that confused me (I wouldn't do anything and the system would freeze on the timer). This would explain the weird freezes that wouldn't be 'triggered' by anything I do.

I'll leave the wallpapers alone and see if my system stays up. I guess I only have one question left; how could automatic wallpaper changers freeze the system? Maybe it's a combination of wallpaper randomizers and the actual wallpapers being saved on a separate partition?

I actually feel a little stupid that I got into all this mess if it turns out I set my system to freeze on a timer... :eek::eek::eek:

usasma · Aug 9, 2009

What tools are you using to switch wallpapers?
Have you checked in the Event Viewer...Windows Logs...Application log file for errors relating to it?

VaguelyRapt · Aug 9, 2009

usasma said:
What tools are you using to switch wallpapers?
Have you checked in the Event Viewer...Windows Logs...Application log file for errors relating to it?

So I have definitely linked the freezes to changing backgrounds (namely the programs that do it automatically on a timer). I've used multiple different tools to switch wallpapers (Wallpaper Master, Random Background, Bee Wallpapers, to name a few), but it seems it is not limited to anyone of them in specific. (Until I tried these programs I would simply choose a picture, right click it and select "Set as Desktop Background". I never had issues with that. Only these kinds of programs would cause issues.)

This brings me back to the debugging problem. I would like to learn from this, but the problem with this case is that once frozen, the system doesn't respond - so I can't generate any logs or dumps, and since I have to cut the power to restart (without even getting a BSOD) the system doesn't seem to create any dumps or logs on it's own. My observation is that the freeze stops everything, including anything that might help with the issue.

So I figure the only thing that can help me diagnose the exact cause of this would be some sort of real-time debugger. I'm not familiar with the field of debugging in the OS level/environment. Doing some research it would seem WinDbg is the best (yet somewhat advanced) debugging tool for Windows, mostly because it's the tool that Microsoft Windows developers use.

I don't mind reading or learning new tools, but will WinDbg help me if I have no dump to work with? If not, is there such a thing as a real-time debugging tool? (by real-time debugging tool, I mean a debugger that would run in the background and analyze/dump/log while I produce the freeze, to make something to work with instead of a dump)

Ardneh · Aug 9, 2009

VaguelyRapt:

I've been rereading the thread. You may have already said and I missed it.

In Reliability Monitor, does the System Stability Chart show a red mark for these freezes. If so, does it always point to whichever Screen Changer was in use at the time?

Also, do the freezes happen even if Aero is turned off?

Ardneh

VaguelyRapt · Aug 9, 2009

Ardneh said:
VaguelyRapt:

I've been rereading the thread. You may have already said and I missed it.

In Reliability Monitor, does the System Stability Chart show a red mark for these freezes. If so, does it always point to whichever Screen Changer was in use at the time?

Also, do the freezes happen even if Aero is turned off?

Ardneh

Believe it or not, my computer just froze while trying to open reliability monitor. I now don't know how much this issue is a matter of background changers. To answer your question, yes, there are red marks for these freezes under Miscellaneous Failures - "Disruptive Shutdown" ("The computer was not shut down properly"). This is due to me cutting power in order to restart the computer. I now see that yesterday it does have one red mark under Windows Failures - "OS Stopped Working" (under Failure Detail is says "0x000000f4 (0x00000003, 0x853cad90, 0x853caedc, 0x81e50400)", if that tells you anything - Google tells me nothing about this). I still see nothing in Event Viewer prior to the freeze that may point to anything suspicious. By the way, I've turned off Aero, and will keep it so to see if I get freezes with the Windows Classic scheme.

I'm back to the suspect that it's my hard drive's fault since partitioning my drive in the previous installation of Vista. In line with usasma's suggestion, I tried DBAN but that didn't work (see previous posts). I then continued with his suggestion to try a low-level format using a boot disc (Data Lifeguard Diagnostic) I downloaded straight from WDC, specifically for my Western Digital Scorpio Blue (WD3200BEVT) HD. That isn't working either. It says it's booting the disc, and according to the instructions from WDC I should see a bunch of options, but my screen just stays a blank black.

Am I right to suspect that my HD is physically screwed up? If neither DBAN nor the manufacturer's diagnostic boot disc don't work, I probably just need to replace my hard drive?

Ardneh · Aug 9, 2009

VaguelyRapt:

Looks like the DBAN booted, but didn't deliver.
Maybe the WDC disc never actually made it all the way to boot?
Do you think it's worth redownloading WDC trying a new image burn of it?
Or just a time waster?

usasma · Aug 9, 2009

If the disks don't work, then there's either a problem with your hard drive, or a problem with the motherboard.

Another test to try is the Hitachi DFT (Drive Fitness Test) located here: Support - Downloads and Utilities
Inside of Windows you can try the free HDTune located here (NOT the Pro version): HD Tune website

Here's a link to a brief description of the error message that you posted: Troubleshooting Windows STOP Messages

I really do suspect that it's your hard drive - but the test here would be to replace the hard drive. If it's the hard drive, then the problem should be fixed - if it's your motherboard, then the problem won't be fixed.

vaguelyrapt2 · Aug 10, 2009

Here I am, with VaguelyRapt2 on another computer (My cookies don't travel with me, apparently. I will make sure this user gets deleted as soon as I'm back on my computer)

I managed to get WDC's Data Lifeguard whatever-its-called to work on the Windows version (non-bootable). My HD passed both quick and extensive tests. I'm concluding this isn't an issue with my HD. At least not a physical one...?

Back to the partition issue, after DBAN didn't work, I continued with KillDisk (free version), and I deleted my entire hard drive. Now I wish to reinstall Vista. I have my activation key backed up using ABR (legit, mind you). Since I got an OEM Vista through HP, I don't have the original installation disc. No worries, I downloaded the Anytime Upgrade Disc (supposed to be just a regular Vista installation disc), which enabled me before to do a clean install no problems. But not this time. It's on a DVD. BIOS is obviously set to boot from CD/DVD drive first. But when it does, it gives me a whole long technical description (most of which I don't understand, but will be glad to type up if it will help), and the final line is "Cannot open CD driver FDCD0000. SHCDX33A cannot load!" And then goes on to show "A:\>_" and wait for my input.

Did I make a mistake on relying on the Anytime Upgrade Disc (which helped me last time when my HD was somewhat still intact)? Did KillDisc remove something neccesary to read DVD's (seeing as the recovery disc CD does boot)?

My recovery disc is no use because the recovery partition was deleted along with the rest of the hard drive (cannot find the WIM file on D:/Sources or something).

Umm... Help? :shock:

usasma · Aug 10, 2009

Call 1-800-HPINVENT and order a set of recovery disks for your exact model.
About $20 and 3-4 days and you'll have a full set that was designed for your system - and it'll contain all the drivers that you must have, and the installed programs that came with the system.

vaguelyrapt2 · Aug 10, 2009

usasma said:
Call 1-800-HPINVENT and order a set of recovery disks for your exact model.
About $20 and 3-4 days and you'll have a full set that was designed for your system - and it'll contain all the drivers that you must have, and the installed programs that came with the system.

I have the HP Recovery partition backed up. I'm not missing what HP gave me (actually, this whole process started out while trying to get rid of HP bloatware). I'm assuming that I could partition my HD manually using other tools, restore the HP Recovery partition, and then use the restore disc to get HP's OEM Vista back. But... This whole thread is about trying to get my system clean.
Is there no way for me to do a normal clean install on my laptop? Suppose I custom built my computer, and it came with a HD that was deleted using KillDisc, what would one do in that case if he wanted to install Vista? Does Vista normally come on CD's? Is my problem the fact that I have Vista on a DVD?

System freeze, no leads

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